F&SF MAILING LIST DIGEST

22/03/1998 TO 02/04/1998


[ Summary of subjects in this digest 68 messages in all ]

Subject: Re: Blimey!
Subject: Re: Blimey!
Subject: Re[2]: Blimey!
Subject: Re[2]: Blimey!
Subject: THE SCI-FILE #66 (fwd)
Subject: Tome of Eternity (fwd)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Blimey!
Subject: shameless plug
Subject: Re: shameless plug
Subject: Prey
Subject: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[4]: Blimey!
Subject: Re: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Prey
Subject: Re[2]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: shameless plug
Subject: Re: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author
Subject: Book Review
Subject: Book Review 2
Subject: Fiction woes
Subject: Re[2]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Fiction woes
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: Fiction woes
Subject: Re: Same world, different author
Subject: Test post
Subject: New
Subject: Another review
Subject: Another review
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re[2]: Fiction woes
Subject: Re[2]: Fiction woes
Subject: Web Publishing was Re[2]: Fiction woes
Subject: List news
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re: Another review
Subject: Re: Re[6]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re[2]: Another review
Subject: Re[2]: New
Subject: Re[2]: New
Subject: A review a day... stops me getting bored
Subject: ID4 was a cool film!
Subject: Re[8]: Same world, different author
Subject: Re: ID4 was a cool film!
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re: Re[2]: New
Subject: Re: Re[2]: New
Subject: Re: New
Subject: Re: New
Subject: RE: New
Subject: Re: ID4 was a rascist film!
Subject: RE: List news
Subject: Re: Re[8]: Same world, different author
Subject: Final warning ;)

       ------------------------------------------------------------        


Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:28:11 -0600
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Blimey!

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

>Hello,
>
>do yuo know when b5: the crusade will appear...and do you know who to
>contact if i wanted to submit an idea for a sci fi book/movie


When you say submit a book/movie idea, do you mean specifically B5?  Or
do you mean your own, original work.

To be frank, with the vast numbers of people who are already writing
treatments and scripts for a syndicate such as B5, (and most of those
already have a track record in the field), unless you're a genius or
come up with a Hugo worthy script, I'd almost save the stamps.

Not only that, the 'rules' for formatting a script for television are
very rigid.  I suggest that if you consider wanting to do this you find
out exactly how it's done and write a macro for your wp to handle it.
You see, simply producing an idea and mailing it to whoever probably
won't be enough in itself.  I would imagine that they would want a full
script.  (This is for TV though and I've never done anything for that
field, so if I'm wrong on that feel free to correct me.)

Again, for your book is an original work, simply writing to a publisher
with an idea probably won't be enough.  Certainly, publishers get enough
manuscripts to pick and choose the ones they want so it's very, very
unlikely that they'll take the hassle of finding a ghost-writer to
implement your idea when there are twenty other perfectly publishable
finished novels sitting on the desk.

If you want to submit a book, there's only one real way; write it.  Send
to the publisher the first couple of chapters along with a synopsis of
the completed work and wait...and wait...and wait.  If they like the
idea they'll ask to see the rest of the manuscript and then you can
wait...and wait...and wait again.  In order to find publishers who'll
take unagented submissions I suggest the Writers' Yearbook, (if you're
in the UK).  Be _very_ wary of agents who appear on the 'net offering to
'proof-read' and 'place' your work.  These are often little more than
scams.  (See:  The Woodside Agency of recent note.)

Possibly the best way to start is by writing short stories and
submitting them to the magazines.  There's no reason your first sale
should be a short story, many new authors sell novels first nowadays,
but generally the turn-around time for shorts is quicker.  A list of
markets can be found on the web.  The excellent _THE MARKET LIST_ is web
based and is at:

http://www.marketlist.com/

If you really want to know who makes the decisions on B5 treatments I
can find out for you, and find how how they'll want it presented.

Toodleoo

Andy (Been rejected by the best) Reynolds






 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 06:02:24 GMT
From: "Paul Walker" 
Subject: Re: Blimey!

> Either my mail's been messing up, or the list has been very quiet of 
> late. Well, seeing as it's running, I thought I'd pop online and let you 

Nope, the list has just been empty. Surprised me when I saw the 
folder had some new mail in it, actually. :)

Paul
--
---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ----
             FidoNet: 2:254/60.11      2:442/103.13
     --->        http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti        <---

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:33:15 GMT
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Blimey!

Hi :)

On 23-Mar-98, Paul Walker wrote:

Actually he didn't write this first bit he must have hacked off the
atributions.
;)

>#> Either my mail's been messing up, or the list has been very quiet of 
>#> late. Well, seeing as it's running, I thought I'd pop online and let
you 

> Nope, the list has just been empty. Surprised me when I saw the 
> folder had some new mail in it, actually. :)

Yes its been very quiet.  The problem is that coollist isn't the most
reliable of services and I've been unable so far to get something better
set up.  That plus the fact that I'm a little busy at the moment meant even
I wasn't posting to the list.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:54:53 GMT
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Blimey!

Hi :)

On 22-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
# 
>#> do yuo know when b5: the crusade will appear...and do you know who to
>#> contact if i wanted to submit an idea for a sci fi book/movie

> When you say submit a book/movie idea, do you mean specifically B5?  Or
> do you mean your own, original work.

> To be frank, with the vast numbers of people who are already writing
> treatments and scripts for a syndicate such as B5, (and most of those
> already have a track record in the field), unless you're a genius or
> come up with a Hugo worthy script, I'd almost save the stamps.

Well of course in the case of B5 and its prospective sequel very few
outside writers are considered.  I believe JMS plans on doing around 25% of
the stories in Crusade himself and of course he's built up a small group of
writers from the 5 years of B5.

> Not only that, the 'rules' for formatting a script for television are
> very rigid.  I suggest that if you consider wanting to do this you find
> out exactly how it's done and write a macro for your wp to handle it.
> You see, simply producing an idea and mailing it to whoever probably
> won't be enough in itself.  I would imagine that they would want a full
> script.  (This is for TV though and I've never done anything for that
> field, so if I'm wrong on that feel free to correct me.)

As far as the scriptwriting is concerned you could always look at the
Complete Book of Scriptwriting by JMS. ;)

> If you want to submit a book, there's only one real way; write it.  Send
> to the publisher the first couple of chapters along with a synopsis of
> the completed work and wait...and wait...and wait.  If they like the
> idea they'll ask to see the rest of the manuscript and then you can
> wait...and wait...and wait again.  In order to find publishers who'll
> take unagented submissions I suggest the Writers' Yearbook, (if you're
> in the UK).  Be _very_ wary of agents who appear on the 'net offering to
> 'proof-read' and 'place' your work.  These are often little more than
> scams.  (See:  The Woodside Agency of recent note.)

A question here.  The Writers and Artists Yearbook in the UK is an
excellent source of who to send your manuscript to.  Whats the equivalent
in the US?

> Possibly the best way to start is by writing short stories and
> submitting them to the magazines.  There's no reason your first sale
> should be a short story, many new authors sell novels first nowadays,
> but generally the turn-around time for shorts is quicker.  A list of
> markets can be found on the web.  The excellent _THE MARKET LIST_ is web
> based and is at:

Additionally there are many writing resources on the net.  I'm on one
rather friendly list for writers of Fantasy or SF which takes a fairly
casual approach.

If you want something a bit more serious and heavyweight I guess Critters
is the best bet.  Andy's a member of that if I remember rightly.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:21:47 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: THE SCI-FILE #66 (fwd)

*** Forwarded message, originally written by scifi-lists@scifi.com on
27-Mar-98 ***
                      Science Fiction Weekly
                More than 38,000 registered readers!
                     http://www.scifiweekly.com



-> THE SCI-FILE #66

Science Fiction Weekly 66 is now online. This issue we have a sneak preview
of Steven Spielberg's new prime time animated SF series "Invasion America."
We also review new books by Ben Bova and James Alan Gardner, Joanna Russ's
classic 1975 novel "The Female Man," the much-hyped "X-Files" Expo, the
"Babylon 5" collectible card game, and more.  This issue's contents
include:



-> NEWS OF THE WEEK 
"The Postman" is named the most boring film of 1997, J. Michael Straczynski
gears up for "The Babylon Project: Crusade," there's a new "Algernon"
telefilm in the works, and more.

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/news.html


-> OFF THE SHELF 
Ben Bova returns to his Moonbase Saga with "Moonwar," and James Alan
Gardner creates a world where people choose their own gender in "Commitment
Hour."

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/books.html


-> ON SCREEN 
Steven Spielberg and Harve Bennett have teamed up to create the first
serious prime time animated drama, "Invasion America." 

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/screen.html


-> CLASSIC SCI-FI 
In 1975 Joanna Russ wrote one of the most radically feminist SF books fans
had ever seen, "The Female Man."

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/classic.html


-> SCI-FI SITE OF THE WEEK 
Journey where no satirical comic strip has gone before: the world of "Sev
Trek."  Everything is oh so familiar yet shockingly different in this world
of captains, starships and aliens with bony foreheads.

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/site.html


-> ANIME 
Luta is about to be anointed the new "wind-user," but he's not even sure
what that means.  Dictator Zanark knows, and he's determined to have the
wind-user power for himself in "Landlock."

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/anime.html


-> COOL SCI-FI STUFF 
Be prepared to stand in long lines and spend *lots* of money.  That's
right, the "X-Files" Expo is coming to town!

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/cool.html


-> GAMES
 If you think "Babylon 5"'s myriad races, ambassadors and political
intrigues make for great TV, wait till you see how they work as a
collectible card game.

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/games.html
          
          
-> LETTERS
In our Letters to the Editor section, one of our readers praises "Dark
City," another defends the Artemis Web site (it's not boring!), a reader
takes exception to our pointing out the heavy drinking in "Wing Commander:
Prophecy," and more.

          http://www.scifiweekly.com/current/letters.html
          

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The SCI-FILE is Science Fiction Weekly's "what's new" newsletter.  To be
removed from our mailing list, send e-mail with the words "unsubscribe sfw"
in the body of the message to scifi-lists@scifi.com. You do not need to
enter
a subject in the subject line.

If you have any questions, e-mail our listmaster at sfw-admin@scifi.com

(c) 1998 Science Fiction Weekly

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*** End of forwarded message ***

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:57:17 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Tome of Eternity (fwd)

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

*** Forwarded message, originally written by EternityOL on 27-Mar-98 ***
Tome of Eternity -- March 26, 1998

The Newsletter of Eternity Magazine and Pulp Eternity

http://members.aol.com/eternityol

Eternity Press is excited to announce the release of Issue #8 of Eternity,
The
Online Journal of the Speculative Imagination. This is the biggest and best
issue yet, with a lucky 13 original stories, and 6 poems, plus book
reviews,
writing articles, essays and exclusive features. Although all of this
issue's
original content is not ready yet, we decided to release the major portion
of
the issue, and will add the rest of the features in the next few months.

This issue sees some great science fiction stories, and marks the end of
themed issues. All future issues will have a mix of science fiction,
fantasy
and horror. Also, we will be expanding the scope of Eternity to include
mystery, suspense and fantastic romance. As the definition of speculative
fiction expands, so will Eternity lead the way and blaze new paths online.

Included in Issue #8, is the web debut of Ian Randal Strock, one the top
short
story stylists in the world. Robert H. Beer's "The Winning Spirit" was a
finalist for the prestigious Writers of the Future Contest. Baseball and
time
travel: an interesting blend. Readers have requested more cyberpunk, and
this
issue contains two excellent cyber stories: Loren Cooper's "The Lives of
Ghosts" and Lynda S. Mikulski's "Fade to White." You like space adventure?
Alien societies? Dinosaurs? Alternate reality? This issue is a cornucopia
of
science fiction themes. And don't skip the poetry. Nebula finalist W.
Gregory
Stewart returns with two great new poems this month.

On the features side, this issue contains six book reviews starting on page
20, plus six pages of writer's book reviews, including a top ten listing of
the best books for writers of fiction and nonfiction. Stella Atrium also
returns with another great article for writers.

Over the next few weeks, several new features will be added. Look for a
sneak
peak and retrospective on Lost in Space, the movie and television to debut
in
a few days. Vibes will return with two new reviews from the world of music.
A
new feature will be Zine Scene, a look at print and web magazines. In
addition, look for some other surprises.

This issue, something very special may happen for Eternity: our 100,000th
hit.
We plan to celebrate the occasion by awarding the visitor who generates
that
special hit, a lifetime subscription to every Eternity Publication. This
includes chapbooks, Pulp Eternity, limited edition releases, free entry
into
Eternity writing contests for life, and (as we expand into other projects)
anything else Eternity Press might produce. With your support, we can reach
that milestone sometime in May.

Please vote. As you visit this month, take the time to vote for us on the
front page. Of the 1500 magazines (print and web) listed at the Ezine
Database, we are currently ranked 27th. With your help we can become #1.
Also,
every story and poem now has a simple form where you can vote and comment.
The
Story of the Month will now be chosen on cumulative points. Authors receive
prizes and cash for winning, so please vote after you read a story. Your
input
matters at Eternity.

So, welcome to another issue. I hope you enjoy it. Your comments are
appreciated and needed. Remember, with the new format you can now read
Eternity like a print magazine. Start on page 2 with "Fermat's Legacy" and
enjoy the issue. You can bookmark the last page you've read, and return
anytime, knowing you won't miss a page. And remember to visit our sponsors.
With their help, Eternity remains FREE.

Steve Algieri
Editor

*** End of forwarded message ***

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:44:34 -0600
From: "Paul Walker" 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Blimey!

> On 23-Mar-98, Paul Walker wrote:
> Actually he didn't write this first bit he must have hacked off the
> atributions.

Can't remember if Pegasus gives attributions, or if I just got 
over-zealous with the highlighting. :)

> > Nope, the list has just been empty. Surprised me when I saw the 
> > folder had some new mail in it, actually. :)
> Yes its been very quiet.  The problem is that coollist isn't the most
> reliable of services and I've been unable so far to get something better

Have noticed that, yes. Bit annoying, but I suppose it's free, so... 
:/

> set up.  That plus the fact that I'm a little busy at the moment meant even
> I wasn't posting to the list.

Not posting to Fido either, you rat! Come on back... ;)

Paul
--
---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ----
             FidoNet: 2:254/60.11      2:442/103.13
     --->        http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti        <---

  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:47:33 -0600
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: shameless plug

As little traffic as this list has seen lately, I'm guessing most people
won't mind a shameless plug. For 12 years now I've been editing and
publishing Dreams and Nightmares, a magazine of SF, fantasy, and horror
poetry, and this month I mailed issue # 50. I've published work by
people like Bob Frazier, Charlee Jacob, Bruce Boston, Wendy Rathbone,
and more than 100 others. Dreams and Nightmares is the oldest
English-language continuously published genre poetry zine in existence,
and is still going strong. The magazine has won an award from
Professional Book Center, has been mentioned several times in the
Honorable Mentions section of the Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, edited
by Windling and Datlow, and many poems I published first have received
various kinds of recognition, including Rhysling nominations. DN
routinely receives very favorable reviews, snippets of some of which can
be read on the DN web site: 
http://home.earthlink.net/~dragontea/index.html 
    That's where you'll also find the entire bibliography of all 50
issues, and, among other things, subscription information, which I'm not
crass enough to post directly to this list.

		David Kopaska-Merkel

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:23:33 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re: shameless plug

Hi :)

On 29-Mar-98, David Kopaska-Merkel wrote:
> As little traffic as this list has seen lately, I'm guessing most people
> won't mind a shameless plug. 

Seemed like a good place to give my general rules about plugging. :)

1) Its got to be on topic (SF, Fantasy, horror at a pinch)

2) Not over long, point people to a URL like David did here.

3) Don't constantly plug the same thing.  If its a magazine then mention a
specific interview/feature that people might find interesting.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:23:01 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Prey

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

I've heard this program mentioned by a number of people on a number of
lists.  first they say its good then I hear mutterings that its been
cancelled (which makes me think it might be good;)

Can anyone point me in the direction of more information about this series?

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:24:43 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Same world, different author

Hi :)

This is a different angle on a topic that has come up before.  I was
interested to read that a number of top SF authors are working on new
Foundation books (Foundation as in Isaac Asimov).

The authors in question are Gregory Benford, Greg Bear and David Brin.  So
they've all proved that they can write.

My question is, who (apart from the Asiov estate) benefits from this sort
of thing?

Wouldn't it be better for people like Brin to write more of their own
books, rather than doing Asimov imitations?

Aren't the public basically being ripped off?

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:52:18 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[4]: Blimey!

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 29-Mar-98, Paul Walker wrote:
>#> On 23-Mar-98, Paul Walker wrote:
>#> Actually he didn't write this first bit he must have hacked off the
>#> atributions.

> Can't remember if Pegasus gives attributions, or if I just got 
> over-zealous with the highlighting. :)

Well since it did it again I'd say that Pegasus is being a bit naff. ;)

>#> Yes its been very quiet.  The problem is that coollist isn't the most
>#> reliable of services and I've been unable so far to get something
better

> Have noticed that, yes. Bit annoying, but I suppose it's free, so... 
> :/

This problem /should/ be addressed soon. I hope to have the list run off my
ISP very shortly. :)

That will be great because I know that some posts just aren't getting
through to the list at all, and at least one person seems to be getting
posts that don't have a date in the header.

>#> set up.  That plus the fact that I'm a little busy at the moment meant
even
>#> I wasn't posting to the list.

> Not posting to Fido either, you rat! Come on back... ;)

Well the problem with trying to go freelance is that people expect you to
work for your money. ;)

Anyway I'm hoping to post some stuff over the next few days that might
provoke comment or debate in here.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 01:04:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Teri Liston Piedrahita 
Subject: Re: Same world, different author

isn't the reading public the same ones that keep going back to serial books like Wolfs' Long Sun, Kurt's Deryni, and Heinlein's Future History series or even Herbert's Dune series?


There seems to be a collective "and then what happens" to many of us that keeps the readership out there for things like additions to the Foundation series. I for one, found the book to be very good. and isn't Benford married to Azimov's daughter? 


Teri


At 02:38 PM 3/29/98, you wrote:

>Hi :)

>

>This is a different angle on a topic that has come up before.  I was

>interested to read that a number of top SF authors are working on new

>Foundation books (Foundation as in Isaac Asimov).

>

>The authors in question are Gregory Benford, Greg Bear and David Brin.  So

>they've all proved that they can write.

>

>My question is, who (apart from the Asiov estate) benefits from this sort

>of thing?

>

>Wouldn't it be better for people like Brin to write more of their own

>books, rather than doing Asimov imitations?

>

>Aren't the public basically being ripped off?

>

>-- 

>

>Have fun,

>

>Eoghann

>

>  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    

>  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list

>                  Mail me for details.

>

>

>  -------------------<<<< Advertisement >>-------------------

>              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

>

>   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm

>  ---------------------------------------------------------

>

>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Teri Liston Piedrahita

Special Events Producer

teri@liveworld.com



LiveWorld Productions, Inc.

307 Orchard City Dr. #304

Campbell, CA 95008


office: 408.871.3212

fax:    408.871.0621

cell:   408.390.4527


www.talkcity.com

www.liveworld.com

www.onnow.com

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:43:02 -0600
From: Teri Liston Piedrahita 
Subject: Re: Prey

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

You can hit the ABC web site at:


http://www.abc.com/primetime/prey/


it is good, but a bit gorey for my tastes


Paint me a whimp!


Teri


At 02:23 PM 3/29/98, you wrote:

>Hi :)

>

>I've heard this program mentioned by a number of people on a number of

>lists.  first they say its good then I hear mutterings that its been

>cancelled (which makes me think it might be good;)

>

>Can anyone point me in the direction of more information about this series?

>

>-- 

>

>Have fun,

>

>Eoghann

>

>  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    

>  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list

>                  Mail me for details.

>

>

> -------------------<<<< Advertisement >>-------------------

>         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

>

>      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com

> ---------------------------------------------------------

>

>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Teri Liston Piedrahita

Special Events Producer

teri@liveworld.com



LiveWorld Productions, Inc.

307 Orchard City Dr. #304

Campbell, CA 95008


office: 408.871.3212

fax:    408.871.0621

cell:   408.390.4527


www.talkcity.com

www.liveworld.com

www.onnow.com

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:38:04 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 30-Mar-98, Teri Liston Piedrahita wrote:

> isn't the reading public the same ones that keep going back to serial
books like
> Wolfs' Long Sun, Kurt's Deryni, and Heinlein's Future History series or
even
> Herbert's Dune series?

Yes it is.  But one could argue that in these cases they are following the
original author's vision.  In many cases the story was mapped out as
multi-volume.

I think the key difference here is that another author is coming in and
doing.. well whatever they like I guess... to the characters/history.  It
just feels like a sales trick to me.

Although the original author can go on mining a particular seam for too
long as well.

> There seems to be a collective "and then what happens" to many of us that
keeps
> the readership out there for things like additions to the Foundation
series. I
> for one, found the book to be very good. and isn't Benford married to
Azimov's
> daughter? 

I'm sure that its this curiosity which the publishers are relying on.  Its
also an interesting move to get some really successful writers to do the
writing rather than unknowns which is what usually happens in these
situations.

Of course, finding out "what happened next" is not always as satisfying as
simply wondering is.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:25:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: shameless plug

From: David Kopaska-Merkel 


>As little traffic as this list has seen lately, I'm guessing most
people
>won't mind a shameless plug. For 12 years now I've been editing and
>publishing Dreams and Nightmares, a magazine of SF, fantasy, and horror
>poetry...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  What do you pay?

;)

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:25:43 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Same world, different author

From: Eoghann Irving 


>Hi :)


Evenin'.  (Well, mornin' now.)

>This is a different angle on a topic that has come up before.  I was
>interested to read that a number of top SF authors are working on new
>Foundation books (Foundation as in Isaac Asimov).


Sharecropping _again_, Ego? ;)

>My question is, who (apart from the Asiov estate) benefits from this
sort
>of thing?


Well, the author will recieve an advance and royalties and the
publishers and book-stores will take their cut.  Same as ever.

>Wouldn't it be better for people like Brin to write more of their own
>books, rather than doing Asimov imitations?


Depends what you mean by 'better'.  Sharecropping achieves several
things:  It's pretty much a guaranteed return for the publisher as they
know that they're going to cash in on an established name, (you ever
notice how those crappy 'Rama' novels had Clarke's name in massive type
and Gentry Lee's, (long may he burn in Hell for his crimes to
literature), in really small letters?).

Also, it may be a boost for the author involved in that all those you
named are pretty much on the midlist when it comes to sales.  None of
them chalk up enormous sales for their own novels, but by attaching
themselves to 'Foundation' they're likely to capture reader interest for
other examples of their work.

Finally, their own publishers may be killing the midlist.  Publishers
have certainly cut down the number of new SF books for the seasonal
slots.  (i.e. there are less books being published under the flag of SF,
a publisher can only budget to produce so many books so those novels by
new and midlist authors won't fund the returns they require.  They
_need_ massive sellers, or at least guaranteed reasonable sales.)  I
find it unlikely for the authors you mention but this may be the only
way _possible_ that they can get anything in print.

>Aren't the public basically being ripped off?


Well, no.  Because they're the ones buying the stuff.  If it didn't
sell, no one would publish it.  And is this _really_ any different from
Eddings churning out yet another tired trilogy?  Or Jordon adding to his
"Wheel of (over)Time" series?  They sell, and the public wants; that's
the bottom line.

Course, it don't help your up-and-comers, your new talents if all the
slots are being taken up by this, (IMO), dirge.  But then, I would be
biased, wouldn't I.

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:25:45 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author

Ego dribbled:

>Although the original author can go on mining a particular seam for too
>long as well.


Usually Fantasy authors, too.  But that's a different argument.  :)


Toodleoo...





 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:18:30 -0600
From: Adrian 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

most of today's shit is begining to look like that most corridgable of
Canadian inventions.....Harlequin series novels............like car
production lines....yech......

(ex. the Lost Dargon series).




===

Adrian 

improvization@rocketmail.com





---Andy Reynolds  wrote:
>
> Ego dribbled:
> 
> >Although the original author can go on mining a particular seam for
too
> >long as well.
> 
> 
> Usually Fantasy authors, too.  But that's a different argument.  :)
> 
> 
> Toodleoo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
>          Superior connectivity. World class hosting.
> 
>       Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
>  ---------------------------------------------------------
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:34:45 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Book Review

Hi :)

Thought I'd throw in a book review, if only because its a great big fantasy
book and its bound to piss off Andy. ;)

STONE OF TEARS
by Terry Goodkind

Reviewed by Eoghann Irving

This is actually book two of a series (of indefinate length).  Its a damn
big book (1000+ pages) and it has a feeble map near the beginning with daft
names like Westland, The Midlands and The Boundary.

All of which raises a number of questions:

1) Why did I buy book two when I haven't read book one?

I do stupid things like that.  I did it with The Riftwar books by Raymond
Feist, and with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson.

2) Why did you buy what appears to be a fantasy cliche?

I was bored and a book that big was bound to keep me occupied for a while.

Now despite that negative start, the book is really not bad.  The central
character, one Richard Cypher, is a man with the gift of magic who refuses
to believe it.  He's just killed his father, although he didn't know it was
his father at the time, the love of his life is a seriously powerful woman,
and the Keeper of the Underworld is after him.

The actual number of cliches in this book is kept to a reasonable minimum.
The characters are well thought out and nicely rounded.  Too rounded in
some cases.

The author haa a bad habit of giving us loads of background on a character
who appears for about 30 pages and then disappears for the entire rest of
the 
book.  Somewhat disconcerting.

Its a slow book, too.  Surprisingly little happens in the thousand pages.
Well our hero does save the world of course, but...

What you do get is lots of character interaction, some nice cultural and
historical details for the various cultures, and a generally entertaining
read.  You also get an ending that screams for a sequel.  Well this is
fantasy.

Still, generally entertaining but could have done with a good editor.  I'll
give it.

7/10




-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:35:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Book Review 2

Hi :)

And while I'm at it, lets have a review of the sequel...

BLOOD OF THE FOLD
by Terry Goodkind

Reviewed by Eoghann Irving

Book three (no I still haven't read book one) with at least one more to
come.  This one weighs in at a mere 700 odd pages.  Guess he was in a rush.

Having defeated the Keeper of the Dead, our heros now have to deal with the
world of the living.  Not to mention a few of the Keeper's servants who are
a little miffed.

This book is similar in style and content to the previous one, but seems a
little weaker.  I can't help feeling that you could half its size and still
have the same story.  I also get the feeling that this is just a prologue
for the next installment.

Still on the plus side, we have characters continuing to grow in depth,
secondary characters from the previous book stepping forward to take the
limelight and some suitably boo hiss villains.

We also start to see some of the connections between various events and
think that maybe the author isn't just making it up as he goes along.  The
author is also happy to kill characters off (or just be beastly to them) in
order to enahance the plot.

Not as good as the last one, but it still beats watching an evenings TV.

6/10



-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:36:21 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Fiction woes

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

Here's another thought for the day. ;)

TV SF remains popular.  Lots of new programs (they dont often last long
mind you), several old faithfuls with decent sized audiences.  Gasp, even
ITV here in the UK is putting on some SF.  Magazines like Dreamwatch and
SFX seem to be going from strength to strength.

So why is written SF in the doldrums?

Fiction magazines are closing, authors who aren't top sellers are finding
it harder and harder to get published.

Whats the cause, and whats the solution?

New magazines, small publishers, will someone come up with a way of making
web publishing profitable?

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:36:16 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 30-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> From: Eoghann Irving 

> Evenin'.  (Well, mornin' now.)

Sleep's  for wimps. ;)

>#> This is a different angle on a topic that has come up before.  I was
>#> interested to read that a number of top SF authors are working on new
>#> Foundation books (Foundation as in Isaac Asimov).

> Sharecropping _again_, Ego? ;)

Hey, its not my fault publishers keep doing it.  Besides, you got a better
topic, feel free to mail it.

>#> My question is, who (apart from the Asiov estate) benefits from this
> sort
>#> of thing?


> Well, the author will recieve an advance and royalties and the
> publishers and book-stores will take their cut.  Same as ever.

I notice a distinct lack of mention of the /reader/ in that list.  Guess
I'm just not a good little capitalist.

>#> Wouldn't it be better for people like Brin to write more of their own
>#> books, rather than doing Asimov imitations?

> Also, it may be a boost for the author involved in that all those you
> named are pretty much on the midlist when it comes to sales.  None of
> them chalk up enormous sales for their own novels, but by attaching
> themselves to 'Foundation' they're likely to capture reader interest for
> other examples of their work.

Hmm. Brin is the guy who just had a million dollar advert in the cinemas
remember. Okay it was a long and boring one, but how much more name
recognition does he need?

I'd say these guys were about top of the modern US SF heap actually.  Not
mega-star status like Asimov admittedly, but they don't have too much
living competition.

> Finally, their own publishers may be killing the midlist.  Publishers
> have certainly cut down the number of new SF books for the seasonal
> slots.  (i.e. there are less books being published under the flag of SF,
> a publisher can only budget to produce so many books so those novels by
> new and midlist authors won't fund the returns they require.  They
> _need_ massive sellers, or at least guaranteed reasonable sales.)  I
> find it unlikely for the authors you mention but this may be the only
> way _possible_ that they can get anything in print.

By all accounts Publishers have hacked back the midlist in most genres
recently.  They seem to be taking the Hollywood approach of relying on a
few expensive blockbusters.

On the one hand it was inevitable since there was a while when they were
simply pouring far too many books into the market.  On the other, their
solution seems rather risky.

>#> Aren't the public basically being ripped off?

> Well, no.  Because they're the ones buying the stuff.  If it didn't
> sell, no one would publish it.  And is this _really_ any different from
> Eddings churning out yet another tired trilogy?  Or Jordon adding to his
> "Wheel of (over)Time" series?  They sell, and the public wants; that's
> the bottom line.

First off, the fact someone buys something doesn't mean they've not been
ripped
off.  If someone sold you a "genuine" Picasso and it turned out not to be,
you'd still have been ripped off having bought it.

As for your other point. Regardless of the quality, if you buy an Eddings
book you get David Eddings.  Its his story, his characters and his writing
style, not a close approximation thereof.

> Course, it don't help your up-and-comers, your new talents if all the
> slots are being taken up by this, (IMO), dirge.  But then, I would be
> biased, wouldn't I.

Well it only doesn't help you if you refuse to write a sharecropped novel I
guess. ;)


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:36:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 30-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> Ego dribbled:

>#> Although the original author can go on mining a particular seam for too
>#> long as well.

> Usually Fantasy authors, too.  But that's a different argument.  :)

Hmm. ;)

Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the
Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation, some
of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a wise move? 
I think not.

I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just too
great.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:46:21 -0600
From: Teri Liston Piedrahita 
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

>Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the

>Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation, some

>of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a wise move? 

>I think not.


You know I have to agree here. By the end of the second dune book my eyes glazed over with a refusal to go on.

2010 and 3001 egads. I tossed the last one across the room "with great force" as Dorothy Parker would say.


Then...there are the sequals I *WANT* to read that take a great ghastly $*#@&(*& 10 years for the author to 

get back to.

>

>I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just too

>great.


Call me a slave to promotion I guess. But if an author I treasure puts out a book, I'll give it a buy

and even a read. Will I like it? maybe, I rarely make excuses for a bad book even if it's by a favorite

author of mine. But...I still buy it. Blech!


Time to give up reading and take up stamp collecting!


Teri




>

>-- 

>

>Have fun,

>

>Eoghann

>

>  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    

>  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list

>                  Mail me for details.

>

>

> -------------------<<<< Advertisement >>-------------------

>         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

>

>      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com

> ---------------------------------------------------------

>

>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Teri Liston Piedrahita

Special Events Producer

teri@liveworld.com



LiveWorld Productions, Inc.

307 Orchard City Dr. #304

Campbell, CA 95008


office: 408.871.3212

fax:    408.871.0621

cell:   408.390.4527


www.talkcity.com

www.liveworld.com

www.onnow.com

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:01:39 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Ego said:

>>#> Although the original author can go on mining a particular seam for
too
>>#> long as well.
>
>> Usually Fantasy authors, too.  But that's a different argument.  :)
>
>Hmm. ;)
>
>Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the
>Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
some
>of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a wise
move?
>I think not.


Since when did 'usually' mean all?  Let me put my 'fact' in a slightly
different way:  The odds predict that if a book is 'mining a particular
seam for too long' it is more likely to be a fantasy book.

Neer ;)

>I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just
too
>great.


Well, yeah.  Probably.

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:11:42 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Fiction woes

From: Eoghann Irving 

Can't believe you're still with FCI, Ego ;)

>So why is written SF in the doldrums?
>
>Fiction magazines are closing, authors who aren't top sellers are
finding
>it harder and harder to get published.


I'd have to argue a little here.  I can't think of a pro-level magazine
that's closed here in the UK in recent years.  In fact, Odyssey started
up about a year ago and seems to be going strong.  For UK readers, I
recommend as essentials subscriptions to _Interzone_, _Odyssey_ and _The
Third Alternative_.  All very good, pro-level mags with good production
values and so much nicer to look at than those horrible little A5
designs that the New York market seems to go with.  I also trust their
editor's selections, (although some of Odyssey's early stories were a
little dodgy, but now there's a thriving slush pile there Liz Holliday
seems able to pick and choose the best).

Selling novels...now that's a whole different ballgame.

>Whats the cause, and whats the solution?


Ummmm...

>New magazines, small publishers, will someone come up with a way of
making
>web publishing profitable?


The only two web-zine type things that seem to do quite well are...erk,
can't remember the name of it but Ellen Datlow edits and another,
semi-pro, market called Mind's Eye.  Omni, (that's the name), has long
been established so I assume that their revenue comes mainly from
advertising.

Mind's Eye is quite interesting in that it gives you samplers for the
stories and you have to click on an advert to be able to read the end.
Advertisers get guaranteed hits on their sites and, as long as you keep
your credit cards upstairs, it costs you nothing to read the story.

Personally though, I hate reading on screen.  I'd much rather have a
book in my hand.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:10:45 -0600
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Ego spat:

>> Well, the author will recieve an advance and royalties and the
>> publishers and book-stores will take their cut.  Same as ever.
>
>I notice a distinct lack of mention of the /reader/ in that list.
Guess
>I'm just not a good little capitalist.


Well, ignoring the hyperbole and dogma of the capitalist
comment...readers ain't stupid.  How many people walk into a bookshop
and just pick up a book and buy it without reading the back cover or
sampling the first few pages.  Very few.  People will always try and buy
books they know they will enjoy, and if more than half of the people who
buy Brin's Foundation novel enjoy it, what's the problem?

I'm as much an opponent of sharecropping as you, Ego, but I can see why
it's done and it makes sense for those with the power to do it.

>Hmm. Brin is the guy who just had a million dollar advert in the
cinemas
>remember.

Remember?  Don't think I've ever seen it.  What was that all about?

>>#> Aren't the public basically being ripped off?
>
>> Well, no.  Because they're the ones buying the stuff.  If it didn't
>> sell, no one would publish it.  And is this _really_ any different
from
>> Eddings churning out yet another tired trilogy?  Or Jordon adding to
his
>> "Wheel of (over)Time" series?  They sell, and the public wants;
that's
>> the bottom line.
>
>First off, the fact someone buys something doesn't mean they've not
been
>ripped
>off.  If someone sold you a "genuine" Picasso and it turned out not to
be,
>you'd still have been ripped off having bought it.


What are proposing then?  If you buy a book and don't like it after
you've read it you should get your money back?  And if I bought a
painting that was purported to be a Picasso then I'd make sure I had
someone professional check its integrity first.  But as a book costs 5
quid and a painting 1 million, what the hey?

What you're talking about is quality control for the reader and that
already exists.  They're called editors.  Sure, you may disagree with
their choices for publication on occasion but 'quality' is a very
subjective term anyway.

>As for your other point. Regardless of the quality, if you buy an
Eddings
>book you get David Eddings.  Its his story, his characters and his
writing
>style, not a close approximation thereof.


No, not a close approximation, the same one every damn time.  TBH, I
would much rather read a continuation of someone else's work by someone
else than the same old regurgitated, tired old plotlines from Eddings.

>> Course, it don't help your up-and-comers, your new talents if all the
>> slots are being taken up by this, (IMO), dirge.  But then, I would be
>> biased, wouldn't I.
>
>Well it only doesn't help you if you refuse to write a sharecropped
novel I
>guess. ;)


If someone offered me enough money, I'd do it.  In fact, if someone
offered me enough money to churn out Eddings style trilogies, I'd do
that too.

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:27:27 +0100 (BST)
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: Re: Fiction woes

If web publishing becomes profitable, it will be because of advertizing,
same as with the print media. However, I do not think this will work. I
for one hate to read long blocks of text on screen because (1) it's hard
on the eyes and (2) I can't do it leaning back with my feet up. I think
web publishing will only work for things on longer than a couple of
pages.
		David Kopaska-Merkel


Eoghann Irving wrote:
> 
> Hi :)
> 
> Here's another thought for the day. ;)
> 
> TV SF remains popular.  Lots of new programs (they dont often last long
> mind you), several old faithfuls with decent sized audiences.  Gasp, even
> ITV here in the UK is putting on some SF.  Magazines like Dreamwatch and
> SFX seem to be going from strength to strength.
> 
> So why is written SF in the doldrums?
> 
> Fiction magazines are closing, authors who aren't top sellers are finding
> it harder and harder to get published.
> 
> Whats the cause, and whats the solution?
> 
> New magazines, small publishers, will someone come up with a way of making
> web publishing profitable?
> 
> --
> 
> Have fun,
> 
> Eoghann
> 
>   SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/
>   MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
>                   Mail me for details.
> 
>  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
>          Superior connectivity. World class hosting.
> 
>       Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
>  ---------------------------------------------------------

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:27:27 +0100 (BST)
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: Re: Same world, different author

I enjoyed all of the Dune books. Only the first two were good as novels,
but the rest were still fascinating. Treat them as philosophical essays
and you might like them better. C. J. Cherryh's Voyager in Night was the
same way.
		David Kopaska-Merkel

Teri Liston Piedrahita wrote:
> 
> >Seriously thats not accurate. You could make a very good case that
> the
> >Dune series went on too long. Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
> some
> >of the later books he did there were not good. Were 2010 etc a wise
> move?
> >I think not.
> 
> You know I have to agree here. By the end of the second dune book my
> eyes glazed over with a refusal to go on.
> 2010 and 3001 egads. I tossed the last one across the room "with great
> force" as Dorothy Parker would say.
> 
> Then...there are the sequals I *WANT* to read that take a great
> ghastly $*#@&(*& 10 years for the author to
> get back to.
> >
> >I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just
> too
> >great.
> 
> Call me a slave to promotion I guess. But if an author I treasure puts
> out a book, I'll give it a buy
> and even a read. Will I like it? maybe, I rarely make excuses for a
> bad book even if it's by a favorite
> author of mine. But...I still buy it. Blech!
> 
> Time to give up reading and take up stamp collecting!
> 
> Teri
> 
> >
> >--
> >
> >Have fun,
> >
> >Eoghann
> >
> > SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/
> > MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
> > Mail me for details.
> >
> >
> > -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
> > Superior connectivity. World class hosting.
> >
> > Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Teri Liston Piedrahita
> Special Events Producer
> teri@liveworld.com
> 
> LiveWorld Productions, Inc.
> 307 Orchard City Dr. #304
> Campbell, CA 95008
> 
> office: 408.871.3212
> fax: 408.871.0621
> cell: 408.390.4527
> 
> www.talkcity.com
> www.liveworld.com
> www.onnow.com
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> -------------------< Advertisement >>------------------- 200,000
> exposures for $450? Where?
> --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
> ---------------------------------------------------------

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 00:14:34 +0100
Subject: Test post

Hi :)

If you're reading this then our new list is up and running smoothly.

The mailing list address from  now on is

fsf-list@thenet.co.uk


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                 Mail me for details.


[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Paul Walker" 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:42:59 +0000
Subject: New

Wah!

I got the new message. Just confused hell out of me having it sitting 
in the inbox. ;)

Paul
--
---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ----
             FidoNet: 2:254/60.11      2:442/103.13
     --->        http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti        <---

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:27:59 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Another review

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

Yet more fantasy.  For some reason I tend to read fantasy and watch SF. 
Not exclusively, but generally.

THE SOPRANO SORCERESS
by L.E. Modesitt Jr.

Reviewed by Eoghann Irving

No, I don't know if that's a pen name or not.

L.E. (for short) has built up a quite impressive commercial reputation
writing books about the land of Recluce.  Obviously he's finally got bored
of that, so we have a new world to explore.

This new world has some interesting features to it.  Our heroine, Anna
Marshall, is a professional singer from our world who finds herself
inexplicably 
in the world of Erde where magic is created by singing.  She finds herself
thrown straight in at the deep end of political maneuverings, sexism, oh
and the odd war.

Its a big book at some 658 pages. Is there some rule I don't know that says
fantasy books must be over 500 pages in length?  Its part one of "The
Spellsong Cycle" of course.

However, despite my cynicism this was a very enjoyable read.  Nice people
die, things don't end happily ever after, characters posses more than one
dimension.

The song magic is interesting and logically worked out.  Anna doesn't
simply forget about her previous life when she arrives in Erde, but
continues to try and contact her daughter throughout the book.  The author
points out some of the less pleasant aspect of living in the middle ages.
By the end of the book I was looking forward to the second installment.

This is a traditional fantasy tale in many respects, although it doesn't
have a big bad "evil" guy.  The writing style if relatively straightforward
concentrating on the story rather than literary tricks.

Basically if you like fantasy you'll enjoy this.

8/10

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:29:11 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Another review

Hi :)

Yet more fantasy.  For some reason I tend to read fantasy and watch SF. 
Not exclusively, but generally.

THE SOPRANO SORCERESS
by L.E. Modesitt Jr.

Reviewed by Eoghann Irving

No, I don't know if that's a pen name or not.

L.E. (for short) has built up a quite impressive commercial reputation
writing books about the land of Recluce.  Obviously he's finally got bored
of that, so we have a new world to explore.

This new world has some interesting features to it.  Our heroine, Anna
Marshall, is a professional singer from our world who finds herself
inexplicably 
in the world of Erde where magic is created by singing.  She finds herself
thrown straight in at the deep end of political maneuverings, sexism, oh
and the odd war.

Its a big book at some 658 pages. Is there some rule I don't know that says
fantasy books must be over 500 pages in length?  Its part one of "The
Spellsong Cycle" of course.

However, despite my cynicism this was a very enjoyable read.  Nice people
die, things don't end happily ever after, characters posses more than one
dimension.

The song magic is interesting and logically worked out.  Anna doesn't
simply forget about her previous life when she arrives in Erde, but
continues to try and contact her daughter throughout the book.  The author
points out some of the less pleasant aspect of living in the middle ages.
By the end of the book I was looking forward to the second installment.

This is a traditional fantasy tale in many respects, although it doesn't
have a big bad "evil" guy.  The writing style if relatively straightforward
concentrating on the story rather than literary tricks.

Basically if you like fantasy you'll enjoy this.

8/10

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:28:43 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> Ego said:
# 
>#> Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the
>#> Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
>> some#  of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a
wise
>> move?#  I think not.

> Since when did 'usually' mean all?

Since I wanted an argument? ;)

> Let me put my 'fact' in a slightly  different way:  The odds predict that
if a
> book is 'mining a particular seam for too long' it is more likely to be a
fantasy
> book.

I'm not entirely convinced of that.  First off you'd need to compare
percentages rather than numbers because I guess SF and Fantasy sell on
slightly different scales.

Second, my original comment about "mining a a particular seam" was refering
to sequels unplanned when the original book was written.

A lot of the fantasy series you dislike were always intended to run for
3/5/7 books, so thats a slightly different point.


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                 Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:29:56 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> Ego said:
# 
>#> Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the
>#> Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
>> some#  of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a
wise
>> move?#  I think not.

> Since when did 'usually' mean all?

Since I wanted an argument? ;)

> Let me put my 'fact' in a slightly  different way:  The odds predict that
if a
> book is 'mining a particular seam for too long' it is more likely to be a
fantasy
> book.

I'm not entirely convinced of that.  First off you'd need to compare
percentages rather than numbers because I guess SF and Fantasy sell on
slightly different scales.

Second, my original comment about "mining a a particular seam" was refering
to sequels unplanned when the original book was written.

A lot of the fantasy series you dislike were always intended to run for
3/5/7 books, so thats a slightly different point.


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                 Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:29:07 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 30-Mar-98, Teri Liston Piedrahita wrote:

>#> Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the

>#> Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
some

>#> of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a wise
move? 

>#> I think not.


> You know I have to agree here. By the end of the second dune book my eyes
glazed over with a refusal to go on.

> 2010 and 3001 egads. I tossed the last one across the room "with great
force" as Dorothy Parker would say.

> Then...there are the sequals I *WANT* to read that take a great ghastly
$*#@&(*& 10 years for the author to get back to.

Thinking of something in particular? :)

Part of the problem with sequels is that while (from the readers point of
view) there is this eagerness to know "what happened next", sometimes what
actually happened isn't aa interesting as what the reader thought up
themselves in the intervening months.

I'm often of two minds about buying sequels to books I enjoyed.

>#> I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just
too
>#> great.

> Call me a slave to promotion I guess. But if an author I treasure puts
out a book, I'll give it a buy
> and even a read. Will I like it? maybe, I rarely make excuses for a bad
book even if it's by a favorite

I'm pretty loyal to authors, so I'll read just about all books by an author
I've enjoyed.  Unless they do something really terrible.

Given the sheer number of books out there, the alternatives are a bit
daunting.  I'm rather reluctant to hand over 6 for a paperback without the
faintest idea of whether I'll like it or not.

I guess I'm not alone, which is why new authors have such a tough time.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:30:05 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[6]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 30-Mar-98, Teri Liston Piedrahita wrote:

>#> Seriously thats not accurate.  You could make a very good case that the

>#> Dune series went on too long.  Asimov certainly ran dry on Foundation,
some

>#> of the later books he did there were not good.  Were 2010 etc a wise
move? 

>#> I think not.


> You know I have to agree here. By the end of the second dune book my eyes
glazed over with a refusal to go on.

> 2010 and 3001 egads. I tossed the last one across the room "with great
force" as Dorothy Parker would say.

> Then...there are the sequals I *WANT* to read that take a great ghastly
$*#@&(*& 10 years for the author to get back to.

Thinking of something in particular? :)

Part of the problem with sequels is that while (from the readers point of
view) there is this eagerness to know "what happened next", sometimes what
actually happened isn't aa interesting as what the reader thought up
themselves in the intervening months.

I'm often of two minds about buying sequels to books I enjoyed.

>#> I guess the commercial pressure to follow up on a "hit" story is just
too
>#> great.

> Call me a slave to promotion I guess. But if an author I treasure puts
out a book, I'll give it a buy
> and even a read. Will I like it? maybe, I rarely make excuses for a bad
book even if it's by a favorite

I'm pretty loyal to authors, so I'll read just about all books by an author
I've enjoyed.  Unless they do something really terrible.

Given the sheer number of books out there, the alternatives are a bit
daunting.  I'm rather reluctant to hand over 6 for a paperback without the
faintest idea of whether I'll like it or not.

I guess I'm not alone, which is why new authors have such a tough time.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                  Mail me for details.

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:31:28 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:

> Ego spat:

I did no such thing! ;)

>#>#> Well, the author will recieve an advance and royalties and the
>#>#> publishers and book-stores will take their cut.  Same as ever.#
#
>#> I notice a distinct lack of mention of the /reader/ in that list.
>> Guess# I'm just not a good little capitalist.

> Well, ignoring the hyperbole and dogma of the capitalist
> comment...readers ain't stupid.

Actually it wasn't hyperbole or dogma in this case.  I don't like the way
markets have moved away from considering the customer (something which
isn't inherant in the capitalist concept).  I think its a mistake and I
think it will bite some companies very hard in the long run.

Oh, and readers are just as stupid as the next person (which is to say they
can be pretty dumb at times ;).

> How many people walk into a bookshop  and just pick up a book and buy it
without
> reading the back cover or  sampling the first few pages.  Very few. 
People will
> always try and buy  books they know they will enjoy, and if more than
half of the
> people who  buy Brin's Foundation novel enjoy it, what's the problem?

Well I'd bet that 90% of the people who buy the Booker prize winner every
year haven't got the faintest idea what or who they're reading.  The phrase
"Don't judge a book by its cover" didn't spring from nowhere.

If people enjoy the novel there is no real problem.  They probably will
enjoy it, Brin is a very capable writer.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.
[sulk]

> I'm as much an opponent of sharecropping as you, Ego, but I can see why
> it's done and it makes sense for those with the power to do it.

Commercially it makes a lot of sense, certainly in the short term.  Long
term I guess it depends on who they get to do the writing.

Artisticly....

I get these funny ideas sometimes. ;)

>#> Hmm. Brin is the guy who just had a million dollar advert in the
>> cinemas# remember.

> Remember?  Don't think I've ever seen it.  What was that all about?

Err, surely you knew about The Postman being made into a film with Kevin
Costner?

> What are proposing then?  If you buy a book and don't like it after
> you've read it you should get your money back?  And if I bought a
> painting that was purported to be a Picasso then I'd make sure I had
> someone professional check its integrity first.  But as a book costs 5
> quid and a painting 1 million, what the hey?

I'm not really proposing anything.  I'm arguing for the sake of it now.  I
just like to see where these things go. ;)

> What you're talking about is quality control for the reader and that
> already exists.  They're called editors.  Sure, you may disagree with
> their choices for publication on occasion but 'quality' is a very
> subjective term anyway.

I'm not sure I'd really trust editors to do quality control.  There seems
to be a huge variation in the way editors do their job, not to mention the
quality of the job they do.

How many books have you read where you thought "This could have done to be
edited a bit more tightly"?

> No, not a close approximation, the same one every damn time.  TBH, I
> would much rather read a continuation of someone else's work by someone
> else than the same old regurgitated, tired old plotlines from Eddings.

Tes, but thats your personal opinion of one author, not an answer to the
argument itself. :)


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:32:41 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:

> Ego spat:

I did no such thing! ;)

>#>#> Well, the author will recieve an advance and royalties and the
>#>#> publishers and book-stores will take their cut.  Same as ever.#
#
>#> I notice a distinct lack of mention of the /reader/ in that list.
>> Guess# I'm just not a good little capitalist.

> Well, ignoring the hyperbole and dogma of the capitalist
> comment...readers ain't stupid.

Actually it wasn't hyperbole or dogma in this case.  I don't like the way
markets have moved away from considering the customer (something which
isn't inherant in the capitalist concept).  I think its a mistake and I
think it will bite some companies very hard in the long run.

Oh, and readers are just as stupid as the next person (which is to say they
can be pretty dumb at times ;).

> How many people walk into a bookshop  and just pick up a book and buy it
without
> reading the back cover or  sampling the first few pages.  Very few. 
People will
> always try and buy  books they know they will enjoy, and if more than
half of the
> people who  buy Brin's Foundation novel enjoy it, what's the problem?

Well I'd bet that 90% of the people who buy the Booker prize winner every
year haven't got the faintest idea what or who they're reading.  The phrase
"Don't judge a book by its cover" didn't spring from nowhere.

If people enjoy the novel there is no real problem.  They probably will
enjoy it, Brin is a very capable writer.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.
[sulk]

> I'm as much an opponent of sharecropping as you, Ego, but I can see why
> it's done and it makes sense for those with the power to do it.

Commercially it makes a lot of sense, certainly in the short term.  Long
term I guess it depends on who they get to do the writing.

Artisticly....

I get these funny ideas sometimes. ;)

>#> Hmm. Brin is the guy who just had a million dollar advert in the
>> cinemas# remember.

> Remember?  Don't think I've ever seen it.  What was that all about?

Err, surely you knew about The Postman being made into a film with Kevin
Costner?

> What are proposing then?  If you buy a book and don't like it after
> you've read it you should get your money back?  And if I bought a
> painting that was purported to be a Picasso then I'd make sure I had
> someone professional check its integrity first.  But as a book costs 5
> quid and a painting 1 million, what the hey?

I'm not really proposing anything.  I'm arguing for the sake of it now.  I
just like to see where these things go. ;)

> What you're talking about is quality control for the reader and that
> already exists.  They're called editors.  Sure, you may disagree with
> their choices for publication on occasion but 'quality' is a very
> subjective term anyway.

I'm not sure I'd really trust editors to do quality control.  There seems
to be a huge variation in the way editors do their job, not to mention the
quality of the job they do.

How many books have you read where you thought "This could have done to be
edited a bit more tightly"?

> No, not a close approximation, the same one every damn time.  TBH, I
> would much rather read a continuation of someone else's work by someone
> else than the same old regurgitated, tired old plotlines from Eddings.

Tes, but thats your personal opinion of one author, not an answer to the
argument itself. :)


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:31:47 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Fiction woes

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> From: Eoghann Irving 

> Can't believe you're still with FCI, Ego ;)

Why wouldn't I be?  They never cause me any trouble, they offer me work and
they even offer to host this list for me.

>#> So why is written SF in the doldrums?
>#> Fiction magazines are closing, authors who aren't top sellers are
>> finding# it harder and harder to get published.

> I'd have to argue a little here.  I can't think of a pro-level magazine
> that's closed here in the UK in recent years.

Well the magazines I heard about closing were US ones.  Hey this is an
international list. ;)

>  In fact, Odyssey started  up about a year ago and seems to be going
strong.  For
> UK readers, I recommend as essentials subscriptions to _Interzone_,
_Odyssey_ and
> _The Third Alternative_.  All very good, pro-level mags with good
production
> values and so much nicer to look at than those horrible little A5
> designs that the New York market seems to go with.

I'm glad that Odyssey is doing okay.  But unless Interzone's readership has
really climbed in the last couple of years, its nothing to shout about. 
Its at semi-prozine levels I believe.  Enough to get by.

I suppose the advantage of the AS design is that you can put it in your
pocket or something like that.

>  I also trust their
> editor's selections, (although some of Odyssey's early stories were a
> little dodgy, but now there's a thriving slush pile there Liz Holliday
> seems able to pick and choose the best).

I sometimes wonder if there aren't more people trying to write for these
magazines than there are reading them. ;)

>#> New magazines, small publishers, will someone come up with a way of
>> making# web publishing profitable?

> The only two web-zine type things that seem to do quite well are...erk,
> can't remember the name of it but Ellen Datlow edits and another,
> semi-pro, market called Mind's Eye.  Omni, (that's the name), has long
> been established so I assume that their revenue comes mainly from
> advertising.

Omni started off in print didn't it?  Certainly Ellen Datlow has a very
good reputation for editing various anthologies and things.

> Mind's Eye is quite interesting in that it gives you samplers for the
> stories and you have to click on an advert to be able to read the end.
> Advertisers get guaranteed hits on their sites and, as long as you keep
> your credit cards upstairs, it costs you nothing to read the story.

I've often thought an approach like that was the best way with online
advertising.  If you don't force people to click on ads, 90+% won't even
if you beg them to.

Got to be careful mind you or they'll get fed up.

> Personally though, I hate reading on screen.  I'd much rather have a
> book in my hand.

Acrobat is probably the solution to that.  The Adobe Acrobat format gives
excellent printed results (exactly the way it looks on screen).  Plus the
reader is free.  I expect to see it being used more and more.

Of course if you print it out, you do have some additional costs to
consider.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:32:59 +0100 (BST)
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[2]: Fiction woes

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> From: Eoghann Irving 

> Can't believe you're still with FCI, Ego ;)

Why wouldn't I be?  They never cause me any trouble, they offer me work and
they even offer to host this list for me.

>#> So why is written SF in the doldrums?
>#> Fiction magazines are closing, authors who aren't top sellers are
>> finding# it harder and harder to get published.

> I'd have to argue a little here.  I can't think of a pro-level magazine
> that's closed here in the UK in recent years.

Well the magazines I heard about closing were US ones.  Hey this is an
international list. ;)

>  In fact, Odyssey started  up about a year ago and seems to be going
strong.  For
> UK readers, I recommend as essentials subscriptions to _Interzone_,
_Odyssey_ and
> _The Third Alternative_.  All very good, pro-level mags with good
production
> values and so much nicer to look at than those horrible little A5
> designs that the New York market seems to go with.

I'm glad that Odyssey is doing okay.  But unless Interzone's readership has
really climbed in the last couple of years, its nothing to shout about. 
Its at semi-prozine levels I believe.  Enough to get by.

I suppose the advantage of the AS design is that you can put it in your
pocket or something like that.

>  I also trust their
> editor's selections, (although some of Odyssey's early stories were a
> little dodgy, but now there's a thriving slush pile there Liz Holliday
> seems able to pick and choose the best).

I sometimes wonder if there aren't more people trying to write for these
magazines than there are reading them. ;)

>#> New magazines, small publishers, will someone come up with a way of
>> making# web publishing profitable?

> The only two web-zine type things that seem to do quite well are...erk,
> can't remember the name of it but Ellen Datlow edits and another,
> semi-pro, market called Mind's Eye.  Omni, (that's the name), has long
> been established so I assume that their revenue comes mainly from
> advertising.

Omni started off in print didn't it?  Certainly Ellen Datlow has a very
good reputation for editing various anthologies and things.

> Mind's Eye is quite interesting in that it gives you samplers for the
> stories and you have to click on an advert to be able to read the end.
> Advertisers get guaranteed hits on their sites and, as long as you keep
> your credit cards upstairs, it costs you nothing to read the story.

I've often thought an approach like that was the best way with online
advertising.  If you don't force people to click on ads, 90+% won't even
if you beg them to.

Got to be careful mind you or they'll get fed up.

> Personally though, I hate reading on screen.  I'd much rather have a
> book in my hand.

Acrobat is probably the solution to that.  The Adobe Acrobat format gives
excellent printed results (exactly the way it looks on screen).  Plus the
reader is free.  I expect to see it being used more and more.

Of course if you print it out, you do have some additional costs to
consider.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:19:17 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Web Publishing was Re[2]: Fiction woes

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

On 31-Mar-98, David Kopaska-Merkel wrote:

> If web publishing becomes profitable, it will be because of advertizing,
> same as with the print media. However, I do not think this will work. I
> for one hate to read long blocks of text on screen because (1) it's hard
> on the eyes and (2) I can't do it leaning back with my feet up. I think
> web publishing will only work for things on longer than a couple of
> pages.

I think there's two ways they can go with this.  Use something like Acrobat
to produce good printouts and just do conventional stories.

Or do something different.

Like 253 by Geoff Ryman (not actually SF or fantasy, but the author has
written some good stuff)

The problem with the new fiction forms is no one really seems to have
worked out what to do with them yet.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:24:44 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: List news

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

You might be interested to know that there are 52 people on this list. 
Hard to believe given the current traffic, but true.

I know this because I've just grabbed the subscription list so I can send
it to Eden who will then set up the new list. :)

I don't know exactly when it will be active, but I thought I'd let you know
in case you get the odd test message.

In addition to that the FSF website will be up soon.  Well its up now, but
it need s bit of tidying up.

Its got a whole bunch of midi files and episode guides, plus all the
reviews that have appeared on the list so far.  I've still got 2.6Mb free
to play with so let me know if there's other stuff you want on it.

I'll probably wait till the new list is running before giving you the URL.
:)

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:17:55 -0600
From: "Paul Walker" 
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

> different way:  The odds predict that if a book is 'mining a particular
> seam for too long' it is more likely to be a fantasy book.

Examples? :)

Paul
--
---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ----
             FidoNet: 2:254/60.11      2:442/103.13
     --->        http://www.trak-one.co.uk/foti        <---

 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Subject: Re: New
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:48:23 -0000
From: Simon Forrester 

The world scuffles to quickly modify their mail action macros, then come 
up with a poor excuse for a message to test they work, like mine.

>I got the new message. Just confused hell out of me having it sitting 
>in the inbox. ;)


 simon.forrester@futurenet.com - online editor
          alt email: simon_forrester@yahoo.com
            www.culttv.co.uk - www.sfnet.co.uk
                     homepage: www.hairy.co.uk



[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:58:24 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Another review

Ego flobbed:


>Yet more fantasy.

Arrrrgh!


>Its a big book at some 658 pages. Is there some rule I don't know that
says
>fantasy books must be over 500 pages in length?  Its part one of "The
>Spellsong Cycle" of course.


Hmmm.  658 pages...probably around the 150k mark.  (Depending on type
size, of course).  That seems to be the standard figure these days.
Also, while listening in on Those Who Know's conversations I heard that
it's nearly impossible to sell a stand-alone fantasy novel these days.
It's trilogy or bust, apparantly.

(That comes from an editor and author's agent and John Jarrold who's
editor of...oh, some SF and F line at one of the major publishers here
in the UK).

Andy (Useless trivia bloke) Reynolds

P.S. Incidentally, when I get the time I might start doing some reviews
of my own...I think I'll start with the Covenant series.  Even though
I've only read the first 40 pages of a trilogy it's not going to stop me
:)




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:58:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[6]: Same world, different author

Ego ejaculated:

>Given the sheer number of books out there, the alternatives are a bit
>daunting.  I'm rather reluctant to hand over 6 for a paperback without
the
>faintest idea of whether I'll like it or not.

Second hand bookshops.  I went to my local one yesterday and picked up
thirteen books for 22 quid.  Not at all bad.  When the book's going for
a pound or so a throw that's the time to find out if you're going to
like a particular author or not.

For the sake of posterity my purchases were:

All four of the 'Hope' series of novels by David Fientuch.
Harm's Way by Dr. Colin Greenland.
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.
Dream Snake by Vonda McIntyre, (shock, horror, it's a Fantasy novel!  I
must qualify this purchase by saying that McIntyre, unlike so many,
learnt to write beautiful lyrical prose before publishing).
Fireflood and other stories, short story collection by McIntyre.
and then some mainstream novels that don't need to be discussed here.

Point is, if I love any or all of these books I'll buy any further
additions from these authors new.  And, by doing this, there's _so many_
authors and books that I love that I'd never have considered buying new
that I've found.  The midlist, for all its maligned and ignored status,
contains some real wonders of fiction.

If any of you can find them, try Melisa C. Michael's _Skyrider_ series
of novels.  Ignore the crass covers and rubbish blurb, just wallow in
her fine action writing, her main character's immatureness, (is that a
word?  Is now), and the best use of 'said-bookism' ever.

"Shut up," I explained.

Trouble is, _Skyrider_ is now over ten years old so finding its a real
bear, (Tor ain't printed any for years), and the only place you're
likely to find them is second hand.  Although, I understand, after a
hiatus, Michaels is back with a new fantasy/mystery novel called _Cold
Iron_.

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 05:27:15 -0600
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: Re: New

After the next global war, when our hexapodal cousins take over, the
world will scuttle to action instead, but in larger numbers. 

On a more relevant subject, I've gotten away from reading the magazines
as much as I used to, because I prefer novels now. However, although the
U.S. prozines like Analog, F&SF, and Asimov's have suffered, in terms of
circulation, over the past couple of decades, the NUMBER of magazines
has increased dramatically. There are many semi-prozines and smaller
prozines whereas 30 years ago there were less than a handful. There are
more would-be writers and writers out there too, I think, so these many
new magazines contain at least Sturgeon's characteristic 10 percent
that's not crud. Of course, most of these little magazines lose money
like a tourist at Disneyland, so they don't last long, but they are
always replaced by new ones. If you look at the magazine field as a
whole, and consider not profits but excellent stories published, I think
it's healthy.

OMNI did start as a print magazine, and had the largest circulation any
prozine ever had, by far. I guess even so they weren't making enough
money to suit investors.
		David Kopaska-Merkel
		Dreams and Nightmares magazine
		http://home.earthlink.net/~dragontea/index.html

Simon Forrester wrote:
> 
> The world scuffles to quickly modify their mail action macros, then come
> up with a poor excuse for a message to test they work, like mine.
> 
> >I got the new message. Just confused hell out of me having it sitting
> >in the inbox. ;)
> 
>  simon.forrester@futurenet.com - online editor
>           alt email: simon_forrester@yahoo.com
>             www.culttv.co.uk - www.sfnet.co.uk
>                      homepage: www.hairy.co.uk

[RETURN TO TOP]




Subject: Re: New
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:14:07 -0000
From: Simon Forrester 

I must admit, I was considering starting some sort of fan fiction thing 
on www.sfnet.co.uk, but when I mentioned it in a forum all I recieved was 
bad Star Trek sex stories. Opinions, please - is there space for a really 
high-quality fiction site on the web? How much should people be paid for 
their work, if at all?

>After the next global war, when our hexapodal cousins take over, the
>world will scuttle to action instead, but in larger numbers. 
>
>On a more relevant subject, I've gotten away from reading the magazines
>as much as I used to, because I prefer novels now. However, although the
>U.S. prozines like Analog, F&SF, and Asimov's have suffered, in terms of
>circulation, over the past couple of decades, the NUMBER of magazines
>has increased dramatically. There are many semi-prozines and smaller
>prozines whereas 30 years ago there were less than a handful. There are
>more would-be writers and writers out there too, I think, so these many
>new magazines contain at least Sturgeon's characteristic 10 percent
>that's not crud. Of course, most of these little magazines lose money
>like a tourist at Disneyland, so they don't last long, but they are
>always replaced by new ones. If you look at the magazine field as a
>whole, and consider not profits but excellent stories published, I think
>it's healthy.
>
>OMNI did start as a print magazine, and had the largest circulation any
>prozine ever had, by far. I guess even so they weren't making enough
>money to suit investors.
>		David Kopaska-Merkel
>		Dreams and Nightmares magazine
>		http://home.earthlink.net/~dragontea/index.html


 simon.forrester@futurenet.com - online editor
          alt email: simon_forrester@yahoo.com
            www.culttv.co.uk - www.sfnet.co.uk
                     homepage: www.hairy.co.uk



[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:22:11 +0100
Subject: Re[2]: Another review

Hi :)

On 01-Apr-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> Ego flobbed:

>> Yet more fantasy.
> Arrrrgh!

Knew you'd be pleased.  Read my next review though.  Fantasy it may be, but
its also a damn good book.

Of course I can only review what I've read and I do read more fantasy than
SF.  Other people are free to review too. ;)

>> Its a big book at some 658 pages. Is there some rule I don't know that
>> says fantasy books must be over 500 pages in length?  Its part one of
"The
>> Spellsong Cycle" of course.

> Hmmm.  658 pages...probably around the 150k mark.  (Depending on type
> size, of course).  That seems to be the standard figure these days.
> Also, while listening in on Those Who Know's conversations I heard that
> it's nearly impossible to sell a stand-alone fantasy novel these days.
> It's trilogy or bust, apparantly.

I wonder if thats connected with the fact that publishers expect to lose
money on new authors until about the third book?

Certainly the only fantasy authors I can name that do single books are ones
who have 5+ books already under their belts, and a decent reputation at
that.

> P.S. Incidentally, when I get the time I might start doing some reviews
> of my own...I think I'll start with the Covenant series.  Even though
> I've only read the first 40 pages of a trilogy it's not going to stop me
> :)

Reviews are always welcome...

Even if they're biased and uniformed. ;)

Seriously anyone can review anything they like and I'll stick it up on the
website.


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                               Mail me for details.


[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:36:28 +0100
Subject: Re[2]: New

Hi :)

On 01-Apr-98, David Kopaska-Merkel wrote:

> On a more relevant subject, I've gotten away from reading the magazines
> as much as I used to, because I prefer novels now.

An interesting point in itself.  I must say I tend to prefer novels to
short stories.  I'm not sure why exactly.  I guess I just like being able
to spend lots of time with the characters.

Which do other people prefer.

> However, although the
> U.S. prozines like Analog, F&SF, and Asimov's have suffered, in terms of
> circulation, over the past couple of decades, the NUMBER of magazines
> has increased dramatically. There are many semi-prozines and smaller
> prozines whereas 30 years ago there were less than a handful. There are
> more would-be writers and writers out there too, I think, so these many
> new magazines contain at least Sturgeon's characteristic 10 percent
> that's not crud. Of course, most of these little magazines lose money
> like a tourist at Disneyland, so they don't last long, but they are
> always replaced by new ones. If you look at the magazine field as a
> whole, and consider not profits but excellent stories published, I think
> it's healthy.

The fact that there are people who keep trying to produce new magazines is
clearly a good thing.  However, I think that magazines that can actually
stay the course for a few years might also benefit the genre.  I'm thinking
in terms of promoting specific writers, advising them etc.

If a magazine only lasts say 4 issues, then it never gets a chance to reach
people outside of the hardcore fanbase.


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                       Mail me for details.


[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:53:20 +0100
Subject: Re[2]: New

Hi :)

On 01-Apr-98, Simon Forrester wrote:

> I must admit, I was considering starting some sort of fan fiction thing 
> on www.sfnet.co.uk, but when I mentioned it in a forum all I recieved was

> bad Star Trek sex stories. Opinions, please - is there space for a really

> high-quality fiction site on the web? How much should people be paid for 
> their work, if at all?

Well not to denigrate the readers of sfx, I'm one of them afterall, but
they are
primarily consumers.  Thats why the magazine has such a good circulation,
because it doesn't go purely for the fans.

So while they may be a good audience for such a site, that doesn't
necessarily
mean they are the right people to ask to write the stories.

Yes I do believe that a high-quality fiction site can work. Assuming, here
comes the caveat, you can get the format right

We've already mentioned the problems of reading on line and how many
(most?) people find it uncomfortable, so that has to be addressed.  You
also have to consider what tone you go for.

Personally I'd suggest a mixture of "innovative hyper-fiction (tm)",
high-brow stories and some low-brow action stuff as well.  I have this
theory that many people get put off fiction sites because they seem them as
too high-brow.  The hyperfiction is a good way of getting attention, not to
mention having some interactivity with the site.  Highbrow stories keep the
hardcore Interzone type readers happy, and lowbrow action stuff keeps us
plebs happy. ;)

How much should they be paid...

Its always a tricky one.  A lot of web sites don't pay for fiction, however
you have to consider that publishers tend not to want stories that have
been published on the web, so offering some recompense to authors will
encourage them to submit.  Mind you the going write for fiction zines isn't
very high.  I think Interzone is only something like 30 per 1000 words and
an average short story is what 3000-5000 words.

Of course there's always Andy.  Wave a fiver under his nose and he'll roll
over and play dead for you. ;)

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                       Mail me for details.

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:54:56 +0100
Subject: A review a day... stops me getting bored

Hi :)

Its a really goody this time. 

ACROSS THE FLAME
By Jonathan Wylie

Reviewed by Eoghann Irving

It's another fantasy book, but this one is different.  For a start its
by just about the best UK fantasy writer in the last 10 years.  Well w
riters actually, since Wylie is actually a husband and wife team.

They started off with relatively conventional fantasy but their more
recent novels blend the fantasy world with the "real" world in a
variety of ways.  Even in the early books they showed a healthy
disregard for their characters lives and for the standard fantasy
motifs.

Our heroine, Anya Caplan, is an artist who lives with her lover Luke. 
She has had a less than pleasant childhood and frequently goes off on
her own away from Luke.  When she views a portrait in a gallery, she
triggers the release of a powerful magician who was trapped in it. The
magician intends to destroy her mind and take over her body.

There's actually a lot more going on than that, but I can't really say
too much without spoiling the story.  This blends fantasy with reality
perfectly.  It's a brilliant book.  The characters are fascinating. 
They have proper personalities and hangups.  They even change their
minds sometimes.

The author also keeps you guessing.  Each time you think you've got
every piece of the puzzle worked out, along comes another twist.

It also apparently breaks all the rules by being a single volume work
of only 376 pages.  I really can't say enough good things about this
book.  You care for the characters and the ending when it finally
arrives is more than a little bittersweet.

This is the sort of book you should get people who don't like fantasy
to read.  If nothing else it should convince them that its not all
elves, dragons and clichs.  Sometimes its just bloody good writing.

10/10


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                       Mail me for details.

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: Eoghann Irving 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:04:46 +0100
Subject: ID4 was a cool film!

Hi :)

Well, we're all being very sophisticated so I thought I'd lower the tone,
and try and start a fight by talking about films. ;)

The subject for debate is...

Films like ID4 are just as /good/ as films like BladeRunner and 2001.

Okay, here's my argument:

A film should be judged primarily by two things.  What it intends to
achieve, and what it actually achieves.

Thus a film like ID4 which aimed to be an entertaining action flick can be
said to be a good film.  People got what they expected to from it.

Objecting to supposed polt holes, or the "realism" of certain aspects of
such a film rather misses the point and is really used as a method of
justifying an instinctive dislike for the film

Okay folks, I just cobbled that together, now rip it apart. :)


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                 Mail me for details.


[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:44:41 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Re[8]: Same world, different author

Hi :)

On 01-Apr-98, Andy Reynolds wrote:
> Ego ejaculated:

>> Given the sheer number of books out there, the alternatives are a bit
>> daunting.  I'm rather reluctant to hand over 6 for a paperback without
>> the faintest idea of whether I'll like it or not.

> Second hand bookshops.  I went to my local one yesterday and picked up
> thirteen books for 22 quid.  Not at all bad.  When the book's going for
> a pound or so a throw that's the time to find out if you're going to
> like a particular author or not.

yeah, makes sense.  Unfortunately the last fantasy/sf book I saw in a
second hand bookshop round here was "The Magic Faraway Tree" by Enid
Blyton.  Cool book mind you. :))

> For the sake of posterity my purchases were:

> The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

Let us know what you think of this.  I keep hearing about this book and
I've always meant to read it.  I like the idea.

> Dream Snake by Vonda McIntyre, (shock, horror, it's a Fantasy novel!  I
> must qualify this purchase by saying that McIntyre, unlike so many,
> learnt to write beautiful lyrical prose before publishing).
> Fireflood and other stories, short story collection by McIntyre.

You know I still haven't read a book by Vonda McIntyre.  Which is quite
surprising considering the number she's written.


-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                       Mail me for details.

  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "John Morrison" 
Subject: Re: ID4 was a cool film!
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:04:45 +0100

-----Original Message-----
From: Eoghann Irving 
To: fsf-list@thenet.co.uk 
Date: 01 April 1998 18:42
Subject: ID4 was a cool film!


>Hi :)

Hello Ego and everyone else, Its good to see the list up and running again.

After our extended discussions about sci-fi films and in particular,
BladeRunner did you think this thread would start something similar?

>Well, we're all being very sophisticated so I thought I'd lower the tone,
>and try and start a fight by talking about films. ;)

Go for it.

>The subject for debate is...

Uh huh.

>Films like ID4 are just as /good/ as films like BladeRunner and 2001.

What is good and what isn't I suppose is down to personal opinion. I think
in comparing films it is better to break them down into separate elements.

Obviously the special effects in ID4 are more impressive than the other two
films you mention. On the other hand the story for ID4 is nowhere near as
involved as the other two films.

I suppose it's down to what your looking for in a film.

>Okay, here's my argument:
>
>A film should be judged primarily by two things.  What it intends to
>achieve, and what it actually achieves.

I think it should basically be judged on how much you enjoyed it and how
much you get out of it. It's difficult to know what a film is trying to
achieve without talking to the people that made it.

>Thus a film like ID4 which aimed to be an entertaining action flick can be
>said to be a good film.  People got what they expected to from it.

Well, what about the people that weren't in the know and didn't know what to
expect. It would be interesting to hear their comments.

>Objecting to supposed plot holes, or the "realism" of certain aspects of
>such a film rather misses the point and is really used as a method of
>justifying an instinctive dislike for the film

I agree there - although I think the plot holes enhanced my enjoyment of the
film. The aliens using the same operating system as a Apple Mac laptop for
instance.

>Okay folks, I just cobbled that together, now rip it apart. :)

Where there's some of my warblings added.

J.




[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:57:02 -0600
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: Re: New

Simon Forrester wrote:
> 
> I must admit, I was considering starting some sort of fan fiction thing
> on www.sfnet.co.uk, but when I mentioned it in a forum all I recieved was
> bad Star Trek sex stories. Opinions, please - is there space for a really
> high-quality fiction site on the web? How much should people be paid for
> their work, if at all?
> 
As an author, I'll state unequivocably that people SHOULD be paid for
their work ... as much as you can afford (which might be rather little,
of course). 

There are quite a few fiction sites on the web already, and some of them
might well be high-quality. As I mentioned before, I don't read fiction
on the web, but I know it's there.
		David Kopaska-Merkel

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: New
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:43:16 +0100

Simon Forrestor said:


>I must admit, I was considering starting some sort of fan fiction thing
>on www.sfnet.co.uk, but when I mentioned it in a forum all I recieved
was
>bad Star Trek sex stories. Opinions, please - is there space for a
really
>high-quality fiction site on the web? How much should people be paid
for
>their work, if at all?


Yes and depends.  Of course there's a place for professional quality
fiction on the web, there's Omni.  As to payment, it's up to you.  If
you want to attract the best pay 3c per word or 30 per thousand words,
(equivalent pro rates).  You can go as low as you want, of course.
Expect a _lot_ of ms though.  Also, if you want the best, accept
snail-mail subs only and bounce those that aren't formatted properly,
(12pt Courier, double spaced, 1 inch margins etc.), and those that are
illiterate in use of structure and grammar, etc.  Accepting subs through
e-mail is a pain in the butt.  You've got all the different formats and
attachments to deal with and that's before you can even start to read
your slush.  Let alone choose.

These measures will weed out those who aren't serious about their
writing.  If they can't be bothered to buy a stamp and mail the sub,
then they can't be that bothered about their fiction, right?

This will be a _lot_ of work.  A whole lot.  And it'll lose money.
Plus, there's the issue of buying rights which is a little complicated
for web work, (as you're immediately ditributing worldwide).

Also, what are the legalities of paying for fan-fic?  Don't the major
franchises sue for things like that?  (I'm sure SFX and its team of
hungry coporate lawyers have checked that out, but...)

Course, I'm speaking through my hat because I've never done an editing
job.  I'd suggest taking a good look at Omni and Mind's Eye and see how
they do it.  Of course, being affiliated to SFX you might well get a
head start in advertising and some revenue, which is half the battle.
However, actually conducting the editing and proofreading and such isn't
a five minute job.

Having said all that, I say, "Go for it."

Toodleoo...




[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: New
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:48:31 +0100

Ego gasped:

>How much should they be paid...
>
>Its always a tricky one.  A lot of web sites don't pay for fiction,
however
>you have to consider that publishers tend not to want stories that have
>been published on the web,

Yes!  this is very important and something I didn't mention before.
Having a story freely avaliable on the web is considered as 'publishing'
and will use up that story's first rights.

>so offering some recompense to authors will
>encourage them to submit.  Mind you the going write for fiction zines
isn't
>very high.  I think Interzone is only something like 30 per 1000 words
and
>an average short story is what 3000-5000 words.


Zone is 30 per 1000, Odyssey currently 20 per thousand, although
that's hoped to be bumped up to 40 per thousand when it finds its feet.
There's reason you can't do what the BBC do for scriptwriters and have a
sliding scale.  First-timer gets paid less than established author.

>Of course there's always Andy.  Wave a fiver under his nose and he'll
roll
>over and play dead for you. ;)


It's 2.50 and a can of flat lager, if you don't mind.

Toodleoo...




[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: New
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:44:37 +0100

Ego hissed:

>An interesting point in itself.  I must say I tend to prefer novels to
>short stories.  I'm not sure why exactly.  I guess I just like being
able
>to spend lots of time with the characters.
>
>Which do other people prefer.


I like them both equally.  I take different things from each form.
Hell, I even like novellas.  So perhaps I'm weird.

Toodleoo...


[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 18:20:50 -0600
From: David Kopaska-Merkel 
Subject: Re: New

I disagree about snail-mail only for subs. I much prefer receiving
e-mail subs. Admittedly, most of the stuff I get is shorter than 3,000
words, because I don't publish anything longer than short-short fiction,
but here's why I prefer e-mail. 

(1) very easy to receive, read, and evaluate the submissions. 
(2) very very easy to reply to submissions.
(3) if you accept it, you already have it in electronic form.

As for messing with formats, here's how I deal with that:

"Dear contributor. I could not read your file. Please re-send within the
body of the message, or as a plain ASCII attachment."

No big problem.

		David Kopaska-Merkel
		Editor, Dreams and Nightmares magazine
		Editor, Star*Line magazine
		Publisher, Rhysling anthology
		Editor, church newsletter
		Publisher, Kid's World magazine
		former editor of professional society newsletter


Andy Reynolds wrote:
> 
> Simon Forrestor said:
> 
> >I must admit, I was considering starting some sort of fan fiction thing
> >on www.sfnet.co.uk, but when I mentioned it in a forum all I recieved
> was
> >bad Star Trek sex stories. Opinions, please - is there space for a
> really
> >high-quality fiction site on the web? How much should people be paid
> for
> >their work, if at all?
> 
> Yes and depends.  Of course there's a place for professional quality
> fiction on the web, there's Omni.  As to payment, it's up to you.  If
> you want to attract the best pay 3c per word or 30 per thousand words,
> (equivalent pro rates).  You can go as low as you want, of course.
> Expect a _lot_ of ms though.  Also, if you want the best, accept
> snail-mail subs only and bounce those that aren't formatted properly,
> (12pt Courier, double spaced, 1 inch margins etc.), and those that are
> illiterate in use of structure and grammar, etc.  Accepting subs through
> e-mail is a pain in the butt.  You've got all the different formats and
> attachments to deal with and that's before you can even start to read
> your slush.  Let alone choose.
> 
> These measures will weed out those who aren't serious about their
> writing.  If they can't be bothered to buy a stamp and mail the sub,
> then they can't be that bothered about their fiction, right?
> 
> This will be a _lot_ of work.  A whole lot.  And it'll lose money.
> Plus, there's the issue of buying rights which is a little complicated
> for web work, (as you're immediately ditributing worldwide).
> 
> Also, what are the legalities of paying for fan-fic?  Don't the major
> franchises sue for things like that?  (I'm sure SFX and its team of
> hungry coporate lawyers have checked that out, but...)
> 
> Course, I'm speaking through my hat because I've never done an editing
> job.  I'd suggest taking a good look at Omni and Mind's Eye and see how
> they do it.  Of course, being affiliated to SFX you might well get a
> head start in advertising and some revenue, which is half the battle.
> However, actually conducting the editing and proofreading and such isn't
> a five minute job.
> 
> Having said all that, I say, "Go for it."
> 
> Toodleoo...

[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: New
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 01:51:35 +0100

David said:


>I disagree about snail-mail only for subs. I much prefer receiving
>e-mail subs.

Then, sir, you are a gentleman.  I have to say, you are one of the very
few I've seen who'll accept them; every else bemoans e-mail subs as
being a lot more effort than they're worth, in times of quantity as well
as quality.

Of course, Simon should take your advice over mine any day.  You're
doing the job, I've never.

>No big problem.


How many subs do you get a month, if I may be so bold?  (Have no qualms
about telling me to get lost if you don't want to say.)

And due to the wonderful nature of the net, you've got one more :)  Ah,
no you haven't, you're overstocked.

Toodleoo...






[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Pagan" 
Subject: RE: New
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:08:54 +0900

>Then, sir, you are a gentleman.  I have to say, you are one of the very
>few I've seen who'll accept them; every else bemoans e-mail subs as
>being a lot more effort than they're worth, in times of quantity as well
>as quality.


My only experience with publishing is doing the lay-out work for a couple of
University based small press publications (not in the SF field though), and
I can understand the convenience an electronic submission gives when your
running a deadline, and a whole story has to be typed in from scratch. Of
course, the submission loads I've experiences are much less.

With regards to quality, I don't see why it cabn't be possible to impose
strict manuscript guidelines on electronic submissions similar to the
formatting guidelines of snail submissions. Maybe restrict the document
formats available, or even strictly flat ASCII. From there, standard
necessary style rules.

The problem that apparently cannot be avoided is the sheer quantity of
submissionsone can receive when opening it to e-mail. While not
intrinsically bad, it does mean a lot more work for the editor and I
imagines it can get frustrating.

Pagan
--------------------------------------------
"Pathological-techno-fetishist-with-social-deficit"
E-mail: pagan@college-of-chaos.net
Web Page: www.college-of-chaos.net/~pagan


[RETURN TO TOP]




From: "Matthew Webber" 
Subject: Re: ID4 was a rascist film!
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:25:08 PST

> Eoghann Irving 

>The subject for debate is...
>Films like ID4 are just as /good/ as films like BladeRunner and 2001.

>Okay folks, I just cobbled that together, now rip it apart. :)

Plot wise, ID4 was ... fairly typical of the base-level action SF that 
is filling the movie theaters today. But since it never claimed to be 
anything else, why bother to pick at it. Though the fact that the aliens 
used WINDOWS software was too funny.

What I disliked, intensly, were the characterizations that were so 
stereotyped as to be rascist. the man of action and muscle black and his 
stripper girlfriend (single mother no less), the wise old jew, the 
computer geek jew, ... all led by the fearless, dedicated family man, 
White guy. 
   The other sterotypes; The burned-out, white trash vet, and the 
flamboyant homosexual weren't quite racist, but did go far in 
highlighting the sheer lack of imagination that went into the writing. 

   The "up with America" attitude, while expected, was tiresome. Anyone 
else notice that the Aliens didn't attack Canada at all? There is a 
scence somewhere that shows all the cities with ships above them ... not 
one north of New York. No doubt because the aliens new that the people 
up in Toronto would be to busy complaining that their cable just cut 
out.  

Indeed, much of the movie was tirsome; the plot, the aliens, the action 
.. which pretty much coveres the whole movie. But admittedly, that is a 
personal opinion. 


`,,``,,``,,`,,
"But how deeply felt. I went through all my schoolboy days convinced
of this, that 'literary studies' were no more than a series of 
autopsies performed by heartless technicians. Worse than autopsies:
*biopsies*. Vivisection."
                            ~Stephen Fry. "Making History"~
                     _____________________
Matthew Webber           helot@hotmail.com
The Sanctum Alcedon -A Talislanta WebPage-
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/2295/ 


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:49:40 +0100 (BST)
From: "Pagan" 
Subject: RE: List news

>You might be interested to know that there are 52 people on this list.
>Hard to believe given the current traffic, but true.


Well, it appears that a lot of people, like myself, have just been lurking
and reading. Well, I'll try and write from now as I can manage, but being a
tad bit new here, I'm still working my way to it.


Pagan
--------------------------------------------
"Pathological-techno-fetishist-with-social-deficit"
E-mail: pagan@college-of-chaos.net
Web Page: www.college-of-chaos.net/~pagan


  -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
              200,000 exposures for $450? Where?

   --> Coollist - http://www.coollist.com/advertise.htm
  ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 03:12:00 -0600
From: "Andy Reynolds" 
Subject: Re: Re[8]: Same world, different author

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Ego barked:

>yeah, makes sense.  Unfortunately the last fantasy/sf book I saw in a
>second hand bookshop round here was "The Magic Faraway Tree" by Enid
>Blyton.  Cool book mind you. :))


That's a shame, the one here has a whole wall filled with nothing but
SF, F and Horror books.  Of probably 20,000 books for sale in the shop
about 3,000 of those are genre.  (Yes, it's a big shop).

>> The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

>Let us know what you think of this.  I keep hearing about this book and
>I've always meant to read it.  I like the idea.


Will do.  Although, I've started on the 'Hope' series by Feintuch and
it's a four book series and rather good so that's going to keep me going
for a while.

Toodleoo...




 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
             High bandwidth usage? No problems.
 
  http://www.astrax.com - Astra X Specialised Web Hosting
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]




Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:05:13 -0600
From: Eoghann Irving 
Subject: Final warning ;)

Thanks for using NetForward!
http://www.netforward.com
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v

Hi :)

Okay, this should be the last time I use the coollist address.  This just a
message to make sure that everyone is getting mail from the new address

fsf-list@thenet.co.uk

If someone isn't they should email me privately and I'll sort it out.

-- 

Have fun,

Eoghann

  SOLAR FLARE http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/    
       AMIGA, DEPRESSION, FICTION, SCI-FI

  MODERATOR Fantasy & Science Fiction discussion list
                       Mail me for details.


 -------------------<< Advertisement >>-------------------
         Superior connectivity. World class hosting.

      Astra Labs WebHosting - http://www.astraweb.com
 ---------------------------------------------------------

[RETURN TO TOP]